Curse

Bobby2 · Oct 13, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

You missed ser´s point. If you stack buffs that benefit per hit ( and even asuran but ok lets leave that apart ) theres a point where single double strikes outdamage MS/DB chain on single targets.

Jagged-Exhausting-MS-DB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

If you dont pack an attack chain on LF sin , he has another 3 free slots , 2 of em for PvE skills since you only use CA. All calculations look good on paper but unleashing more than 1 MS/DB chain is not as easy as it seems .... not at all.

Flawed. Agility and Scan are auto-includes on both Blossom spammers and LF sins. 3rd is usually reserved for SY! (on either build).

Elaborate on what skills you'd use on an LF bar.

Tenebrae · Oct 13, 2009, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Jagged-Exhausting-MS-DB.

Those first skills have no bonuses , not worth. Maybe GPS + DB/MS , otherwise those damage calculations fall down pretty quick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Flawed. Agility and Scan are auto-includes on both Blossom spammers and LF sins. 3rd is usually reserved for SY! (on either build).

Can you show me the stone in wich that rule is carved in ? nah they are not.
The fact is that as i said , LF sins can choose to carry an attack chain or not. SY! is 1 choice , EBsoH is another bla bla bla .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Elaborate on what skills you'd use on an LF bar.

I dont have to , depends on situation and zone/mission you play in.

Bobby2 · Oct 13, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Those first skills have no bonuses , not worth. Maybe GPS + DB/MS , otherwise those damage calculations fall down pretty quick.

When compared to the auto-attacks of LF, I'd say Jagged-Exhausting gives it a run for its money. Remember the ease with which GDW was brought into the argument?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Can you show me the stone in wich that rule is carved in ? nah they are not.
The fact is that as i said , LF sins can choose to carry an attack chain or not. SY! is 1 choice , EBsoH is another bla bla bla .

I'd send it by air-mail but your address seems to be changing constantly. Nonetheless, as stated before, any 'ideal' buff combo can be run just as easily on a Blossom spammer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

I dont have to , depends on situation and zone/mission you play in.

The cheapest of all retorts.

Tenebrae · Oct 13, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

When compared to the auto-attacks of LF, I'd say Jagged-Exhausting gives it a run for its money. Remember the ease with which GDW was brought into the argument?

Well id say not , you are not changing my opinion and im not changing yours. I said GDW just to mention one non-asuran scan buff that any other player can carry , it doesnt matter , there are a few others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

I'd send it by air-mail but your address seems to be changing constantly. Nonetheless, as stated before, any 'ideal' buff combo can be run just as easily on a Blossom spammer.

jagged+exhausting+db+ms+Ca+ <your carved in stone asuran scan> = 6 skills. I dont know what "combo" can you run with 2 slots an/or some att splitting but LF can be Ca+LF+ <6 optionals>.
With ease ? dont think so , maybe not hard but def not easier than a LF sin , not at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

The cheapest of all retorts.

And the most undeniable truth on GW : zone/mission/foes skills determine optional skills on any build ( skills i think any build should have ). If you dont want this answer , dont make that question . Simple

Bobby2 · Oct 13, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

You've so far been trying to evade the point that has been brought up by me, Chthon, and snaek. Don't assume that just because you're not going to change your opinion, I'd not be willing to either. Solid arguments win. Let me rephrase my question so you may understand.

Jagged-Exhausting-MS-DB
VS
Locust's + any 3 non-PvE Assassin skills of your choosing

The reasoning behind this restriction being that any buff applicable to Sins, in whatever form (SoH, Scan, EBSoH, Barbs etc etc) can be applied to both builds. Now here's the $10K question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

You missed ser´s point. If you stack buffs that benefit per hit ( and even asuran but ok lets leave that apart ) theres a point where single double strikes outdamage MS/DB chain on single targets.

What point?

Tenebrae · Oct 13, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

You've so far been trying to evade the point that has been brought up by me, Chthon, and snaek. Don't assume that just because you're not going to change your opinion, I'd not be willing to either. Solid arguments win.

Evading ? ive answered in this thread before you pal and no one ask me nothing. Solid experience win , not paper calculations .Unless you are misreading on purpose you shouldnt say things like ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Jagged-Exhausting-MS-DB
VS
Locust's + any 3 non-PvEE Assassin skills of your choosing

...Even more when in the quote that YOU make of one of my sentence i mention "stack buffs per hit" therefore you have no authority to forbid me to use pve skills at all. You are doing that on purpose to win "an argument" that no one is having.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

The reasoning behind this restriction being that any buff applicable to Sins, in whatever form (SoH, Scan, EBSoH, Barbs etc etc) can be applied to both builds. Now here's the $10K question:
What point?

Well i never said otherwise , but you have 2 slots remaining , LF sin has 6. The thing is that with same OUTSIDE buffs , LF sin still have more slots available for anything.
Start reading over because snaek already said that point. The thing is "that" point happens really really often in GW . No one says that MS/DB chain is bad but there are many ppl saying that LF is and no , no matter what you say , LF is not a bad option , not at all.
Before you or any other start asking builds or MoD screens or whatever .... please try to play a little ( wise ) with LF instead dropping nice calculations to fill a white paper.

Just test it sometime , check post title "Whats the idea with locusts fury" , try to bring some ideas or choices instead comparing ..... dont know why ppl tend to go offtopic if someone uses something they dont like

BigDave · Oct 13, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

For MS/DB + SoH + Barbs - 182 DPS

For LF + SoH + Barbs - 184 DPS

The numbers are near enough the same with the buffs. Any further buffs (like GDW) would result in LF doing significantly more single target damage. This is of course against a 60AL target. The attack chain i used in the LF build is only there to apply deep wound. I didn't spam the skills if DW was not on the target, just auto attacked.

Both builds have their plus points. LF hits more often meaning SY! can be used more often, but it's more vunerable to enchant stripping and without buffs it's damage is pretty low. MS/DB does more AoE damage and doesn't need buffs to do high damage but hits less often making SY! harder to spam.

Both builds work well.

Bobby2 · Oct 13, 2009, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Dave, fair testing and all, but the Master is a 60AL stationary target. Not the stuff one would encounter in HM. Plus; I was talking about another chain altogether. Jagged-Exhausting is wa-hey faster than GFS-Wild.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

...Even more when in the quote that YOU make of one of my sentence i mention "stack buffs per hit" therefore you have no authority to forbid me to use pve skills at all. You are doing that on purpose to win "an argument" that no one is having.

So hostile.

Couldn't you at least try to answer my question with substantial arguments?

maxxfury · Oct 14, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Seems like a bit of a paradox(did i use that right? :P) to use attack skills with locusts. You lack the plus damage skills vs loosing the double strike rate from auto attacks.

So assuming you stack your buffs (Ascan, gdw, soh ect) on both bars, a locusts and a ms/db. Does the locusts STILL keep up without the big +damage attack skills(blossom and mobius) in hardmode with the heavily aromured mobs. Or does it only keep up vs the low armoured MoD?

As both bars will both gain the benefits from Soh, gdw and Ascan, but lacks the extra +damage from the attack skills? Just looking at the numbers it seems like the locusts only real damage is the +x from bitch toons? as the auto attack damage of daggers is poop :P And the Ms/Db will gain the same bonus damage from the bitch toon, but will also gain extra +x from its own dagger attack skills.

What can a locusts bar take to compensate for the lack of +xdam from the dagger attacks? or does the inherent +50% double strike cover it with the extra procs of the buffs.

ty.

RadaArashi · Oct 14, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Unlike Death Blossom spam, LF builds are much more dependent on your hero setup so you have to ask yourself first: who is providing Barbs/Mark of Pain? and Strenght and Honor? we also got an option we can't forget: Splinter Weapon.

At 10 channeling it means you'll do 35 damage 4 times (140 AoE damage) every 5 seconds, plus the damage from Mark of Pain. Actually this skill was the point of much debate in the previous LF thread, some argued in favor of GDW allowing pretty much perma-lock (which is better against a boss or places where foes don't bunch up) or an increased source of AoE damage (better against places with mobs), but in the end both offer their benefits, its up to you which one you want.

So you're gonna have a N/Mo that'll have curses and smiting and a Rt/ or /Rt for Splinter? or a N/Rt and a Mo/E smither? If your human buddy will bring GDW making Splinter null, you're bringing a N/Mo or a N/ curses and a Mo/ smither?

What kind of support will your 3rd hero bring?

Mr. Undisclosed · Oct 15, 2009, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by samerkablamer

stick SoH on a hero, stick GDW on a friend, bring locusts fury, save yourselves, dodge this, forget justice, and asuran scan. then tell me its bad dps for auto attack

The fact that you need all that to make it good is proof enough that it is bad.

Chthon · Oct 15, 2009, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

If you stack buffs that benefit per hit ( and even asuran but ok lets leave that apart ) theres a point where single double strikes outdamage MS/DB chain on single targets.

Yes, and per snaek's calculations, it's not practically reachable for realistic level of monster armor.

Quote:

If you dont pack an attack chain on LF sin , he has another 3 free slots

For what? You say "buffs," but WHICH BUFFS? Name skills. Sure, it varies by situation, so give alternatives. Heck, just name ONE buff you'd bring in ONE situation and I'd be happy.

The point is, there's no decent buffs not already on the standard MS/DB bar that you can run without an attribute investment you can't afford. Everything's coming from other party members. And that means a proper comparison puts the same buffs on both builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDave

For MS/DB + SoH + Barbs - 182 DPS
...
For LF + SoH + Barbs - 184 DPS
...
This is of course against a 60AL target.

I believe one of sneak's conclusions was that LF could pull ahead in NM where armor-sensitive damage was meaningful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadaArashi

Splinter Weapon.

Only if GDW is unavailable. And that goes double for LF builds.

Quote:

At 10 channeling it means you'll do 35 damage 4 times (140 AoE damage) every 5 seconds, plus the damage from Mark of Pain.

1. Splinter does not hit the original target. So you're not going to be triggering MoP with Splinter unless you arrange the very awkward pattern of changing targets and attacking the guy next to the MoP'ed guy for 4 hits.

2. DB spammers leave LF in the dust whenever MoP is at play. Always. DB adds far more AoE damage than do a couple extra triggers of MoP. If MoP is doing anything worthwhile, then DB will too.

Vazze · Oct 15, 2009, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDave

The numbers are near enough the same with the buffs. Any further buffs (like GDW) would result in LF doing significantly more single target damage.

Let me add something to BigDaves's test. If we compare the two builds in 4- attack sequences, the mobius sin will deal 190dmg in dagger-bonus damage and 5X in other-bonus damage (X=weapon damage + other bonuses; 5x is for lead+oh+2dual+mobius). The LF sin will deal 0 dagger-bonus damage (autoattack) and 7.2X (4*1.8) in other-bonus damage during the same time period. Then we get this very complicated equation fro equal damage:

190+5X=7.2X (note: asuran scan and ias are irrelevant, they increase both sides equally)

you get X= 86, so if you and your party can pack ~60-70 bonus on you (subtracted ~20 for the dagger weapon damage), then the two builds have exactly the same single target DPS. That is a lot of bonus....

...but not impossible.

BigDave had only (15+29) =44 bonus and got similar dps but the difference is not that big: 190+(44+20)*5=510 for MS/DB and 461, only 10% less for LF. SO it was either luck or weapon damage against armor60 was a bit more than 20/hit (due to high critical).

Anyways, the conclusion is that with high bonuses (GDW+SoH = +55) LF is practically identical in single target DPS to the MS/DB. More bonus damage (ebon ward/orders/etc) is not gonna make a difference and the significance of target armor is minimal. Personally, if I had a kick ass buff bitch, I would pick LF: bar not crowded, more adren; otherwise go with ms/db.

Tenebrae · Oct 15, 2009, 09:21 AM // 09:21

You know that all that "LF is armor sensitive and HM have lots of it" stuff turns into BS when you apply cracked armor right ?. Any caster has to be lvl 28 or more to have more than 61 armor when suffering from cracked armor. Seriously , sometimes u seem to be talking of a math theory instead GW .. and even thou , you didnt check all the "variables".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

So hostile.

Couldn't you at least try to answer my question with substantial arguments?

So annoying

Im not going to play your game , answer yourself . What buffs not coming from assassins work per hit and haven been mentioned yet ? tic tac tic tac, squeeze your mind ...... im not making up things. If you behave i will give you a clue

RadaArashi · Oct 15, 2009, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Thats the thing, like I said, LF is highly dependent on heroes. The only thing LF has over Death Blossom is that you only need to auto-attack. It's auto-pilot easy mode for similar damage.

syphonus · Oct 15, 2009, 08:13 PM // 20:13

:sigh: here we go again. I'd never take LF over MS or WotA. The former because it does more sustained AoE DPS, and the latter for any other kind of damage.

Consistently, in every way imaginable, with our without buffs on any AL target, WotA outperforms LF in DPS. Not even accounting for the much better e-management (I.E. scan spam) or the 1sec CT every 32 secs with LF. Only way it's worth taking LF over those is if you're baed at timing attack chains.

HigherMinion · Oct 21, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Locust's Fury is one of the best ways to abuse Barbs/MoP, Orders, SoH, GDW, and any other physical buffs you can think of! Critical Agility and Locust's Fury mean you'll do more damage auto-attacking. Open your mind a little and see the possiblity.

BlackSephir · Oct 21, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Yes, you need an entire party build around buffing you to do decent damage. Not OMFG damage, decent damage.
If you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

HigherMinion · Oct 21, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Yes, you need an entire party build around buffing you to do decent damage. Not OMFG damage, decent damage.
If you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

It might not be OMFG damage, i'd say it's more "lol-damage" If you ran Locust's Fury with a MoP nuker, you will be blasting mobs to pieces, if you can follow the MoP's calls well enough.

P.S. Do you know anyone who's brain has fallen out of their head yet? Or simply no one thinking enough?

Vazze · Oct 21, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Yes, you need an entire party build around buffing you to do decent damage. Not OMFG damage, decent damage.

You need two skill slots outside your bar to get similar dps as ms/db (...I have no idea what that translates into in your very open mind, "decent", "omfg"...something else perhaps?

) and that is =/= "entire party build".